You're all having the thing in common that you to some extent direct a program or larger institution. Along with this position of course comes a responsibility in terms of what the students get away from it. When reading the contribution from the Gerrit Rietveld Graphic Design Department for the Graphic Magazine last year, you, David, refer to a student quote in the intro of the magazine which says:

"I feel guilty towards my ignorance and lack of knowledge."

You mention this as a quote that made an impression, and also one to bring along not only as a student but also as an educator. This was one or two years ago, so things might have changed, but it did make me wonder if we could use this quote as a stepping stone for sharing thoughts on the responsibility of directing a design education?

That was on a poster in a critique from a student, Yunie Chae, who is also a person whose work I admire very much. To use and present the format of a poster so personally in an educational context touched me quite deeply. And in terms of responsibility... of course, we have a responsibility to teach, but I would say that responsibility is a shared responsibility and that students also have a responsibility to learn. So in that sense, I think there's an exchange happening in school.
But one thing that I've experienced, is that I think students are becoming more aware of, what they want from a school, and what's on offer. And that has two sides; the consumer side – which is maybe the least interesting side of it, but also on the other side, an awareness or understanding or pressure on what the school can offer you.

So speaking of the relevance of the students to form a criticality... When reading through the program descriptions of the different schools (KABK, Sandberg Instituut, and the Gerrit Rietveld), it seems that teaching the student to be a critical thinker and to position themselves within their field, is a returning key point of relevance across all the schools.
With that in mind and in order to scale a bit out: Do you think that's something which to some extent represents a DNA of Dutch design education, or could we think a bit about what elements that are a part of Dutch education?

Yeah, well, I have a bit of a fierce opponent of Dutch education in that sense, because I suppose we are an international community, and I feel very much that the individual academy choices lead to a specific responsibility. In this case, our three schools might be comparable, but a school in Groningen or in Rotterdam might be completely different and focus a lot more on skills on crafts, which is also good. You know, there's no good or bad, I think it's just a choice that we consciously made.
Being in The Hague, with all the ministries around us – the ministry of education is only 10 steps away as well as economic affairs – is all there. And we also collaborate with these ministries to talk about how we can foster change? Can we for instance enable education to become part of this paradigm shift that we kind of need for our society? How can we step in and is there something that we could do? To connect this with what David just said about feeling guilty and lack of knowledge, I think what is interesting and important is that we study together, and we walk along the lines together as tutors. Which is something that has massively changed since the 90s, when Jurgen and I both studied. Tutors were supposed to know it all, and you know, as tutors, we don't know it all – and I think this is fine! We just question things together and we figure things out together.

...although I have to say that this is a very Dutch way of thinking, and also very contemporary. I mean, we are a part of this Dutch system, and you notice that a lot of students, specifically in the bachelor phase for a graphic design education come to the Netherlands to learn about a presupposed idea of Dutch design. I don't think that's so much a part of the output anymore, however, what you're saying, Roosje, is for me a very specific way of treating your education and building this vision on what you think education should be. For me, this is a very Dutch approach. Maybe, David, you would disagree?

That’s funny, I was thinking about it this morning... Coming from overseas and looking towards Europe, and more specifically, Holland, one thing that I think was very impressive to me, and still is, is how the various design disciplines are historically built into the fabric of society. Like, graphics, product design, urban design, all of these things were part of a shared conversation, and not as a layer put on top of the other one, or a last-minute situation, such as having forgotten to make signage for the building.
I noticed Dutch design as something which was more integrated, perhaps more conversational and shared, like an acknowledgement that disciplines have an equal value and can add to each other. So, coming from a country that has a relatively young cultural history, I found it kind of amazing: you come to this place, you walk around the city and you read it, as well as situate yourself in it.

When we're using the term display, what are we talking about? And especially when considering that the term “display” maybe needs a bit more of a definition for people who are not sharing similar practices or backgrounds with the three of you or this world that we're in. Adding to this, I think there's also a difference between having a physical display space, as opposed to the online platform, that Frederique (Cosmos carl) for instance is representing.

Yeah, what is a display? I think, on the Cosmos Carl website, it mainly means the representation of work, although the work is never there itself, but presented through a hyperlink on display. So while it's like a list of works, it's not necessarily like an online gallery – only if you come to the work through the link of Cosmos Carl, you may know that it is an artwork. Whereas there's also the possibility to kind of stumble upon the work. If you, for instance, are randomly trying to find an Airbnb in Athens, one of the houses, there is actually an artwork by us. So there's a difference between the way that you enter the work and the way in which you will experience it – and I think this aspect also changes the way that it is on display.

yeah. But although you select the works that are listed on Cosmos Carl, they are not necessarily works of art in themselves, or are they?

Yeah, they are works of arts but also texts, pieces of music, or sometimes serial results of working with curators. Usually, the works are made for Cosmos Carl. And sometimes there are existing projects that we know about, and then we ask them to collaborate or to show it on the website.
But yeah, we are always thinking about it more as “hosting” than “displaying”, because, we find that on the internet, maybe this is a more natural word for how to think about the display – like where it is hosted, and where it is shown?

It is likewise an interesting question, because when scanning each of your web presences, something they seem to have in common, is that there's a kind of a playful awareness or challenge of how to display or present the works that you're sharing from each of your platforms. While at the same time, it is actually coming really close to curatorial work. Do you see these two terms as two separate things, or do you think they also come together?

I actually never thought about it. I think it's the first thing you do, right? If you want to make a narrative or collect things that you want to share you have to consider how they are combined? And how do they make up a story? And for me, this is the act of graphic design actually. If you're not able to do so then it becomes really difficult.

Yes, this comes close to editing and publishing.

I think a less daunting term for all of us coming from a graphic design background is “editor” and that “curator” immediately sounds a little bit too fancy.

I like “selector”...

So, we were talking about this "Dutch" thing and also talking about education. And then we stumbled upon the fact that the Gerrit Rietveld graduation shows each year is a display in itself compared to other art schools. Once there, for instance, was an office set up, and now these floor line structures. So each year, students are already encouraged, and also aware of the notion that the work is going to be displayed. While elsewhere, it's always a battle of who gets the best spot. So, to have such a final show already makes you aware of the playful approach you can have towards presenting your work. And I think this is a very big influence on how people continue their practices as well.

It's something that I think also is remarkable for the Werkplaats Typografie graduation shows

Yes, that is sort of the same spirit.

Yes, both in the consideration of surrounding, setting and concept

...and mediums

Yes! and medium indeed, like, shows where everything is turned into a movie or where the ideal scenario is that nothing is actually physically shown.

...and this year each student is going to have an individual graduation show, which is also remarkable, as the Werkplaats is a place which has always been very collaborative and collective. And I think it's interesting that the people running the Werkplaats, first Karel Martens and now Armand Mevis, always kind of go along with this attitude, like: "Yeah, let's try, let's see what comes out of it!". And I am curious, maybe this means that the graduation show will be really small.

But maybe these graphic design graduation shows that really reflects an incredible experimental approach to the display system – maybe this also reflects some kind of a graphic design DNA: to consider all these aspects medium and context as one part of the complete?

I think that's a Dutch design thing... Well, and I guess Dutch design also kind of goes back to borrow from the Bauhaus movement a little bit.

Yes, cause it's the text, it's the image, it's the space, it's the performance, or the direction of the audience as well – all these aspects are considered into the display of the show.

I actually find it always a bit overwhelming when the display structure is so newly made for that situation. And I think this also goes back to the way that I think about Cosmos Carl and what I was saying in the beginning about its natural habitat – that, there's all these elements of the design that have an origin elsewhere. And when completely taking that element away and putting it in this artificial new design structure... I always wonder how the people that made the design work, how they feel about that, or how they would actually want to be displayed in a bit more relaxed manner.

You all have a practice right now, which is maybe a step away from graphic design. Could you tell us a little bit about how your current practices are still formed or shaped by your background?

I don't see it so much as stepping away from graphic design, but more as an enhancement or an extension. I still feel connected to design and graphic design and always aware of it. Even if I engage in community organization or workshops, I do all of that with the mindset of a designer. And that is sometimes really helpful and sometimes gets in the way as well. I am now, for instance, doing an artistic research PhD, and in this context, the kind of determinism of the designer of wanting to know where you're heading is actually sometimes not so helpful. I find that very challenging, but also very interesting.

Juliette, you title yourself as a visual artist and designer as well. Do you feel it's the same practice?

Yes, it is in the sense that it's my practice so I bring the two together. But yeah, some projects are definitely more design-oriented like books, publications, or a logo. And I actually think that's a nice part about the Netherlands, that the borders are very fluid between art and design. I feel very comfortable that I can work on autonomous projects while still doing graphic design stuff as a freelancer, or work with Hackers & Designers on some strange experimental books without having to name it as a graphic design project or a commissioned work.

Roger, how does that work for you now that you have this space that you use as a presentation space?

Yeah, the project space is very much a joint project, as I'm just one of the people running this. Personally, I'm still a graphic designer, because most of the time I'm designing the books that are published. But yeah, it's such a wide notion. And I think how I ended up being a publisher, a designer and having this project space, all have to do with my love for books, and my desire to be completely independent. So I really like to design and work on even the smallest detail, but not in this institutional or more commercial setting. But at the same time, I wanted to make a living out of this, so it is like a very long term project and ideal situation of doing the things you like with friends, and at the same time also be able to make your living out of it.

On that note, we are here to talk about collaborative practices, maybe Freja can jump in here?

Yes, well, I was trying to formulate a question of something like: how can graphic design also be a tool to generate collaborative projects? But when doing so, I needed to stop myself realizing that I think very often (if not always) Graphic Design and publishing in a broad sense, is collaborative by nature. So this made me want to reformulate the question into addressing if there even is such a thing as a non-collaborative publishing scenario, and in that sense if collaboration actually is a part of a DNA in graphic design?

I guess I'm the only one around this table who is not a graphic designer, but I do have a studio, which is very much focusing on graphic design as a medium. So for me, running that design studio is already a collaborative practice per se. I am trained in psychology and as an artist, and while I'm bringing a lot of that into this design studio, I'm not the one creating the visuals. It also means that our studio is not just focusing on graphic design, but that research from my personal background also feeds into that. In order to execute a lot of our projects, we collaborate with others. And in line with our publication project NXS (that's how it all started off), it's also about creating other works that respond to that publication. As such, creating collaborations or networks is both our method and the goal of this project. So without collaboration or connecting with others, we could not even exist as a practice.

Is that collaboration then always a democratic process where everybody has the same say? Or do you as an organization still have directing roles, where you actually have the final say in the collaboration?

I think the design is a natural part of publishing, and that it's a really collaborative project. It's like a platform that you share with people. But meanwhile, the design can be a very personal element. When I work with designers that come up with proposals that we accept, I try to give them complete freedom, because I think there's also quality in allowing a personal voice, that can add a distinctive graphic design element. But of course, there's not just one way to look at this.